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soltanov 1 days ago [-]
Good to see Dat still alive, but without solve for mobile NAT traversal and persistent seed incentives, these p2p protocols never escape hobbyist tier.
I'm pleased to see DAT survived in some way the niche rivalry with IPFS, but let the people at Iroh their website LLM endpoint is down, https://www.iroh.computer/blog/what-is-derp
> "The DERP Protocol in Iroh"
> "Explain the original DERP protocol by Tailscale, focusing on its functionality and limitations. Discuss how Iroh has adapted and enhanced the DERP protocol, emphasizing the use of DERP URLs instead of regions."
There's no LLM endpoint :) These prompts were meant for humans to fill in :P (this post was from 2024)
That said, this was an old blog post that never actually got finished, so we've taken it offline and replaced it with a redirect to our relay docs page.
schmoooo 1 days ago [-]
no. cabal chat is different.
...but you can also checkout quibble as an alternative to keet that is open source.
i think the most awaited thing that has been in the making for hlf a decade now is "datweb" so all the dat ecoaystem projects might potentially work in browsers as well and not just as standalone apps
soltanov 1 days ago [-]
Falling back to DERP relays means trusting and funding centralized relay boxes. That solves connectivity by conceding peer-to-peer. You end up with client-server architecture plus extra cryptographic tax.
davexunit 22 hours ago [-]
There's a distinction to be made between p2p as a network topology and p2p as a redistribution of power and agency. It's true that relays are an unsatisfying fallback to deal with the networks we have, but they still allow for meaningful p2p in sociopolitical terms. Relays that support the spirit of p2p need to be federated, stateless, and end-to-end encrypted.
schmoooo 19 hours ago [-]
you dont need relays if you use dat.
blind relays are optional and literally only relevant for specific really difficult carrier grade network conditions where direct connections might not always work.
...but even then, relay is really dynamic and any dat peer is automatically and dynamically participating im the process ..p2p, not federated
davexunit 18 hours ago [-]
Are you saying that, aside from carrier grade NATs, dat otherwise achieves 100% direct connections?
schmoooo 13 hours ago [-]
i mean - network situations can be complicated and problematic but i would say pretty much yes in the sense of in prwctice it almost always works - 100% is too strongly framed, but it is really reliable, feel free to try.
if you dont want to use the stack and try programmatically, try keet messenger or holesail.io app to experience the reliability
schmoooo 1 days ago [-]
nat traversal decentralized/distributed holepunching is absolutely what dat has pioneered and is also industry leading and battle tested because it has plenty of apps with lots of users.
dat exists in rust and the more feature rich mature version is C & JS so you cqn build cross platform p2p apps using the web stack to make it as easy as possible for anyone to adopt
They have a great talk about solving for scale. I feel like atproto has really tackled so many of the incredible challenges of getting p2p to work, by honing in on exactly these sorts of questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoJnj2yPf14
schmoooo 13 hours ago [-]
atproto is not p2p and will never be. ...if thats why ppl adopt it, they essentially got scammed.
p2p has lots of challenges but many are cultural and social and related to funding and changes in UX, but the technical side is pretty much battle tested and production ready and working.
again, paul pfrazee is the creator of beaker browser - one dat ecosystem project among many, so he is of course entitled to his opinion
pfraze 13 hours ago [-]
Just pick the right technologies for the right problems. If your scale is entirely interpersonal - small orgs, friends, family devices - then p2p is much more likely to be a good choice.
schmoooo 3 hours ago [-]
at any point in time, a person can only read so much scrolling through their feed and follow thousands.
try keet.io and join rooms woth 20k+ members. works without problems.
even having millions of followers isnt a different problem to torrenting a popular archive.
p2p absolutely scales and excels when the amount of users is massive.
janandonly 1 days ago [-]
I think DAT is mostly dead, even the Beaker browser is no longer around I think?
Anyways, new projects like Keet.io keep the p2p dream alive, or at least, give it a zombie-like undead experience.
ch71r22 21 hours ago [-]
Beaker Browser was so cool! Paul Frazee and Tara Vancil. It was always super experimental. I think it ended when Paul left to join other decentralization-focused devs starting to build Bluesky and the AT Protocol.
The way I remember it, back then they were building Beaker on dat in collaboration with dat devs, which I think was basically just Mathias Buus (mafintosh) who was part of an org called Hyperdivision. Now Mathias is continuing the dat/hypercore stuff at Holepunch (building Keet and Pears). It still seems cool, but I think a lot of the most exciting stuff in the dat ecosystem stopped when Paul Frazee left
So I think that original Beaker/dat/hypercore vision has probably moved mostly into the AT Protocol (Bluesky, tangled, etc.). I haven't been following that as much lately. I wonder if anyone is working on something like Beaker Browser for the AT Protocol, or if that even makes sense
schmoooo 19 hours ago [-]
yeah, absolutely false.
paul pfrazees beaker browser was just one of many dat ecosystem proje ts even though a popular one. keet is also a dat ecosystem project.
quibble is just the latest addition and linked elsewhere in this thread and an open source version of keet.
there is an active dat rust implementation.
you also have a sql relation database primitive on top of dat and the hyper stack now
and datweb will be released soon.
at proto has nothing to do with p2p at all and its just pfrazee who moved on.
the holepunch company mainly focuses on building the closed source keet app and the bare and pear runtime to make it easy to built cross platform p2p application.
they also maintain a lot of the underlying hyper stack that has grown and matured and is essentially the foundation of dat ecosystem, but there are many projects.
you also have an interview of mathias buus presenting holepunch/keet on the dat ecosystem blog, so sadly your view seems quite distorted for some reason, ...unless you are getting paid to plug at proto
jauntywundrkind 17 hours ago [-]
"yeah, absolutely false" is offputting to read, especially when you're not contracting anything said there. you're confirming a bunch of it, and adding more.
as a reader with only a little emotional investment here (but some), i want to tell you your message would spread much better if you could shape it some other way. your post has a lot of good material. but man that is really not fun to read, couched so adversarially.
this is something i work on myself. often i think there is real reason to take a person to task, and to respond strongly, but trying to keep the broader audience in mind. and: i don't think that was the case here.
schmoooo 13 hours ago [-]
fair enough, i take it.
unfortunately open source is unthankful and if you work on something novel and different its even harder, so if anyone secures funding by compromising and then using that to spread different marketing it can be very frustrating.
the thread started woth the post of the dat ecosystem website.
...since then it was declared dead by some.
then at proto was framed as some sort of "successor.
then iroh used the opportunity to plug their project.
all of them with their own marketing budget and funding, so this makes it really tough for very passionate and personally invested open source community with no VC funding
so fai enough, a calmer answer would read nicer, but its not always easy.
...if you are interested in more particular issues i can of course elaborate and provide more details - technically or otherwise.
cheers
ch71r22 7 hours ago [-]
It sounds like you are more tapped into this space than me. I'm not trying to push any angle. Apologies if it sounded like I was trying to diminish dat or other projects. I think all of these projects are interesting
A few years ago, I was pretty excited about this but just as a casual observer. I'm out of the loop now
I'd be interested to hear what projects you think are the most exciting to follow these days
schmoooo 3 hours ago [-]
Depends what you are most interested in.
There is a lot of effort being invested towards finally enabeling dat in regular web browsers.
There is quibble linked in different comments on this hackernews post and there is https://keet.io ...both p2p messengers, the former open source, the latter more mature.
There is paraQL for a p2p sql relational database.
There is datrs for an implementation of the core primitives in rust.
there is the already linked https://holesail.io to make any kind of service available via p2p
and a lot of other things.
and then you have the cross platform pear runtime for building p2p apps and bare runtime as a lean minimal but extensible and embeddable js cross platform runtime.
you'll see new apps released soon. One i am waiting for is a p2p enabled bitcoin wallet, the other one a "rss reader" combined with a p2p blogging engine. i assume that will happen within this year.
schmoooo 1 days ago [-]
dat is not dead.
dat is alive and kicking.
dat is also has datrs if rust is your cuppa.
dat and its underlying hyper-* stack has industry leading holepunching capabilities INCLUDING on mobile!! ..and you also have bluetooth discovery these days.
its a mature battle tested ecosystem and the keet messenger shows you whats possible.
iroh is just for p2p connectivity and doesnt aim to create what dat is trying - they arent comparable.
in a nutsbell, dat gives you git+torrent but more flexible.
soon datweb will be released to make the stack work in regular browsers - no need for cpoud or any servers - works entirly on just mobile/laptop/desktop
..end user devices
schmoooo 1 days ago [-]
Another interesting dat-ecosystem project is an open source messenger as potentially an alternative to keet.
P2P application layers always sound great on paper until you have to deal with NAT traversal and partition healing in the wild. Interested to see how they handle state sync edge cases.
schmoooo 19 hours ago [-]
p2p and nat traversal always sounds great - until you try the hyper stack and notice its REAL, battle tested and production ready.
try now ... you can either use commabd line tools or peogrammatic libraries but if you dont want to dive that deep, just try something like https://holesail.io first to see that holepunching nat traversing p2p is real and if you find anything that rivals dat - feel free to share, but unlikely judging based on your comment
singularityisne 1 days ago [-]
The P2P protocols that actually escape hobbyist tier tend to solve one of two boring problems: NAT traversal, or an incentive to keep serving data when the original publisher is gone. Dat tried to do both with big payloads, which is the hard quadrant.
Nostr is a useful contrast, though it sidesteps more than it solves: relays are intentionally dumb and replaceable stores, identity lives entirely in the keys, and the payloads are small. A dead relay is just a reconnect. That model breaks the moment the interesting payloads get large, at which point you need exactly the durability and seeding incentives Dat never quite cracked. So 'relay mesh + keys' is a great answer for small messages and a non-answer for files.
The persistent complaint about NAT traversal is also worth taking seriously: anything that requires a public reachable peer as a rendezvous point tends to end up depending on a central service, which is why these ecosystems keep re-centralizing around bootstrap nodes.
schmoooo 19 hours ago [-]
yeah dat or the hyper stack is industry leading in terms of nat traversal - nothing comes close and is also NOT hobnyost at all.
nostr is a toy and not even worth mentioning in this context.
dat has no repevant central bootstrapping nodes. its dynqmic and every peer becomes one and every app can add dynamically on top of pers constantly collecting and sharing more potential bootstrapping nodes.
... and what i just shared is not just an idea, but a reality in the ecosystem that works
https://docs.iroh.computer/concepts/nat-traversal
https://www.iroh.computer/blog/what-is-derp
https://ark-builders.medium.com/the-deceptive-complexity-of-...
projects using iroh:
https://github.com/muhamadjawdatsalemalakoum/kith
https://delta.chat/
https://github.com/fishfolk/bones/
> "The DERP Protocol in Iroh"
> "Explain the original DERP protocol by Tailscale, focusing on its functionality and limitations. Discuss how Iroh has adapted and enhanced the DERP protocol, emphasizing the use of DERP URLs instead of regions."
and so on for the rest of their FAQ page
PS: Is keet.io a reincarnation of Cabal chat (https://cabal.chat/)?
That said, this was an old blog post that never actually got finished, so we've taken it offline and replaced it with a redirect to our relay docs page.
...but you can also checkout quibble as an alternative to keet that is open source.
https://codeberg.org/LTC-GT/Quibble
i think the most awaited thing that has been in the making for hlf a decade now is "datweb" so all the dat ecoaystem projects might potentially work in browsers as well and not just as standalone apps
blind relays are optional and literally only relevant for specific really difficult carrier grade network conditions where direct connections might not always work.
...but even then, relay is really dynamic and any dat peer is automatically and dynamically participating im the process ..p2p, not federated
if you dont want to use the stack and try programmatically, try keet messenger or holesail.io app to experience the reliability
dat exists in rust and the more feature rich mature version is C & JS so you cqn build cross platform p2p apps using the web stack to make it as easy as possible for anyone to adopt
They have a great talk about solving for scale. I feel like atproto has really tackled so many of the incredible challenges of getting p2p to work, by honing in on exactly these sorts of questions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoJnj2yPf14
p2p has lots of challenges but many are cultural and social and related to funding and changes in UX, but the technical side is pretty much battle tested and production ready and working.
again, paul pfrazee is the creator of beaker browser - one dat ecosystem project among many, so he is of course entitled to his opinion
try keet.io and join rooms woth 20k+ members. works without problems.
even having millions of followers isnt a different problem to torrenting a popular archive.
p2p absolutely scales and excels when the amount of users is massive.
Anyways, new projects like Keet.io keep the p2p dream alive, or at least, give it a zombie-like undead experience.
The way I remember it, back then they were building Beaker on dat in collaboration with dat devs, which I think was basically just Mathias Buus (mafintosh) who was part of an org called Hyperdivision. Now Mathias is continuing the dat/hypercore stuff at Holepunch (building Keet and Pears). It still seems cool, but I think a lot of the most exciting stuff in the dat ecosystem stopped when Paul Frazee left
So I think that original Beaker/dat/hypercore vision has probably moved mostly into the AT Protocol (Bluesky, tangled, etc.). I haven't been following that as much lately. I wonder if anyone is working on something like Beaker Browser for the AT Protocol, or if that even makes sense
paul pfrazees beaker browser was just one of many dat ecosystem proje ts even though a popular one. keet is also a dat ecosystem project.
quibble is just the latest addition and linked elsewhere in this thread and an open source version of keet.
there is an active dat rust implementation.
you also have a sql relation database primitive on top of dat and the hyper stack now
and datweb will be released soon.
at proto has nothing to do with p2p at all and its just pfrazee who moved on.
the holepunch company mainly focuses on building the closed source keet app and the bare and pear runtime to make it easy to built cross platform p2p application.
they also maintain a lot of the underlying hyper stack that has grown and matured and is essentially the foundation of dat ecosystem, but there are many projects.
you also have an interview of mathias buus presenting holepunch/keet on the dat ecosystem blog, so sadly your view seems quite distorted for some reason, ...unless you are getting paid to plug at proto
as a reader with only a little emotional investment here (but some), i want to tell you your message would spread much better if you could shape it some other way. your post has a lot of good material. but man that is really not fun to read, couched so adversarially.
this is something i work on myself. often i think there is real reason to take a person to task, and to respond strongly, but trying to keep the broader audience in mind. and: i don't think that was the case here.
unfortunately open source is unthankful and if you work on something novel and different its even harder, so if anyone secures funding by compromising and then using that to spread different marketing it can be very frustrating.
the thread started woth the post of the dat ecosystem website.
...since then it was declared dead by some. then at proto was framed as some sort of "successor. then iroh used the opportunity to plug their project.
all of them with their own marketing budget and funding, so this makes it really tough for very passionate and personally invested open source community with no VC funding
so fai enough, a calmer answer would read nicer, but its not always easy.
...if you are interested in more particular issues i can of course elaborate and provide more details - technically or otherwise.
cheers
A few years ago, I was pretty excited about this but just as a casual observer. I'm out of the loop now
I'd be interested to hear what projects you think are the most exciting to follow these days
There is a lot of effort being invested towards finally enabeling dat in regular web browsers.
There is quibble linked in different comments on this hackernews post and there is https://keet.io ...both p2p messengers, the former open source, the latter more mature.
There is paraQL for a p2p sql relational database.
There is datrs for an implementation of the core primitives in rust.
there is the already linked https://holesail.io to make any kind of service available via p2p
and a lot of other things.
and then you have the cross platform pear runtime for building p2p apps and bare runtime as a lean minimal but extensible and embeddable js cross platform runtime.
you'll see new apps released soon. One i am waiting for is a p2p enabled bitcoin wallet, the other one a "rss reader" combined with a p2p blogging engine. i assume that will happen within this year.
its a mature battle tested ecosystem and the keet messenger shows you whats possible.
iroh is just for p2p connectivity and doesnt aim to create what dat is trying - they arent comparable.
in a nutsbell, dat gives you git+torrent but more flexible.
soon datweb will be released to make the stack work in regular browsers - no need for cpoud or any servers - works entirly on just mobile/laptop/desktop ..end user devices
https://codeberg.org/LTC-GT/Quibble
try now ... you can either use commabd line tools or peogrammatic libraries but if you dont want to dive that deep, just try something like https://holesail.io first to see that holepunching nat traversing p2p is real and if you find anything that rivals dat - feel free to share, but unlikely judging based on your comment
Nostr is a useful contrast, though it sidesteps more than it solves: relays are intentionally dumb and replaceable stores, identity lives entirely in the keys, and the payloads are small. A dead relay is just a reconnect. That model breaks the moment the interesting payloads get large, at which point you need exactly the durability and seeding incentives Dat never quite cracked. So 'relay mesh + keys' is a great answer for small messages and a non-answer for files.
The persistent complaint about NAT traversal is also worth taking seriously: anything that requires a public reachable peer as a rendezvous point tends to end up depending on a central service, which is why these ecosystems keep re-centralizing around bootstrap nodes.
nostr is a toy and not even worth mentioning in this context.
dat has no repevant central bootstrapping nodes. its dynqmic and every peer becomes one and every app can add dynamically on top of pers constantly collecting and sharing more potential bootstrapping nodes.
... and what i just shared is not just an idea, but a reality in the ecosystem that works
try projects like e.g. https://holesail.io for example